Monday, April 30, 2007

Turkey's paranoid (and dying)secular fascists protest over...nothing

From the NYT. Ironic that Turkey's secular extremists seek to "preserve freedoms" by siding with an army which has toppled several democratic governments. You got something similar going in Pakistan where Mudsheriff(unelected BTW) joined hands with Altaf Hussein's MQM thugs to stage a "protest" against "radicalism."(Yes indeedy, citizens arrests and shutting down a brothel is "radicalism"). Ofcourse this has nothing to do with MudSheriff's attempt to undermine the Supreme Court by dismissing the Chief Justice(who didnt vote the "right" way). Where art thou, yon neocon democracy lovers? My comments are in red.

When hundreds of thousands of protesters filled the streets of Istanbul on Sunday, it may have looked like a protest of government policy.

It was not.(If it was, the army would have pulled a Tiananmen square)

Behind the slogans and signs of marchers in Istanbul on Sunday and in Ankara two weeks ago was something much more basic: a fear of the lifestyles of their more religious compatriots.(Why? Are they forcing it on you?)

Some concerns were snobbish: religious Turks were uneducated and poor, their pesky prayer rugs got underfoot in hospital halls.

Others were less elitist and had more personal worries: how much tolerance for our secular lifestyles will an emerging class of religious Turks have?

“These people are from poor areas; they just don’t know what the government stands for,” said Aysel Tuikman, 39, a civil servant wearing a skirt, a sweater, beige pumps and pearls. “They’re only being manipulated. We are here for their good also.”

“People here are the real Turkey,” she said, waving a flag high above her head.(Translation : our time is up but we won't go without a fight)

It is an emotional reaction to a relatively new layering of society that began 20 years ago but has accelerated recently. A massive migration from rural areas to Turkey’s cities and a large-scale economic boom have drawn an entirely new class of religious Turks from the country’s heartland into the life of its secular cities.

The class is represented by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who is challenging the secular elite( which is totally out of touch with the majority of the population which gravitates towards the Deen), forcing a presidential candidate upon them whom they find completely distasteful.

On Friday, the military gave him a warning. It has ousted four elected governments since 1960( real "democratic" aint it?), and seemed to be considering whether to make Mr. Erdogan’s the fifth. On Sunday, Mr. Erdogan gave a warning of his own: He will continue to push his candidate, an action that will probably lead to early national elections.

Secular Turks fear that Mr. Erdogan has a secret agenda(insert conspiracy theory) to impose Islamic law on Turkey and that his party’s move to secure the presidency, the highest seat of secularism in Turkey, is one of the final steps needed to start that process.(Didn't the majority of Turks vote for Erdogan? So much for respecting "democracy.")

Mr. Erdogan, for his part, came from Turkey’s political Islamic movements of the 1990s, but he broke with them and formed his own, which swept national elections in 2002. He has said that he would keep religion out of policy decisions, and for the most part, he has.

But for the protesters on Sunday, that was not enough.

“They say they’ve changed, but look at their wives,” said Yalcin Turkdogan, 61, an architect who had not been to a protest since 1977. Mr. Erdogan’s wife wears a head scarf.(yes Yalcin, run for the hills, its them hijabi woman. They're coming to getcha! What a banana republic to create this fuss over head scarves)

For Sevim Erzen, a retired civil servant at a protest in Ankara earlier this month, the number of women in head scarves moving into her wealthy Istanbul neighborhood was disturbing. “They have started to look down on us,”(Nah, you're just paranoid and ashamed of yourself, thats all) she said. “They are trying to be part of the ruling class.(Oh so THATS what this is about...)

The message of secularist protesters, said Metin Heper, a professor at Bilkent University in Ankara, was this: “We are uncomfortable with the lifestyles of these people.”(and a great excuse to take the day off).

“They fear these people, but these fears are groundless,” he said. “Gradually, they will see that these people are no different from themselves.”

Prejudices among secular Turks have their roots in Turkey’s education system, Mr. Heper said. “Education here teaches that if you are a practicing Muslim, you are an ignorant person who will bring the country back to the Middle Ages,” he said.

M. Hakan Yavuz, the author of “Islamic Political Identity in Turkey,” describes being shocked at the rigidity in the political science department at Ankara University(Believe it or not folks, I actually know an engineering student who is being prevented from graduating because he has a beard), where he got his undergraduate degree, compared with the village where he grew up, where interpretations of the teachings of a thinker of Sufism, a mystic branch of Sunni Islam, were welcomed everywhere.

“It was not a dialogue, but rather a carefully structured program of indoctrination,” Mr. Yavuz writes in the preface of his book, published by Oxford University Press in 2003, referring to his education at Ankara.

One of the problems for the secularists is that the elite never fully redefined the legacy of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk(the dunmeh munafiq died from a combination of cirrhosis and syphillis) , the visionary who founded the Turkish state in 1923. It did not change with the times. The main secular political party, the Republican People’s Party, lacks agile leaders who can articulate a unifying vision for the diverse secular groups.

They never had to. The most recent attempt by a pro-Islamic party to run the country, in 1997, ended in the military pushing it out of power.

Gokay Gedik, a 20-year-old student at Marmara University here who had come to the protest on Sunday with his friends, all members of the same rock band(music major?), said the Republican People’s Party was all talk and no action.

“Blah, blah, blah,” added his friend, who had a pierced eyebrow and dreadlocks.

Secular Turks worry that the new class of religious migrants could potentially be a force for radicalism.(Yeah, like overthrowing a civilian government. Like..uh..the army) Large groups of new migrants to cities propelled revolutions in Iran and in Russia.

But in Turkey, the class owns businesses and has become better off in the recent economic boom. It values stability in society.

The new mingling in secular urban areas has had a quieter effect, raising emotional questions like whether to separate the sexes in public swimming pools or change the curriculum in schools to include more religious instruction.

Questions about how tolerant the new class of society will be of secular lifestyles is of vital importance to secular Turks, but they go unaddressed by Mr. Erdogan’s party. In part, that is because the party is under fire by the secular establishment, which seizes on any opportunity to find evidence of Mr. Erdogan’s Islamic influence.

“Even if Erdogan walked on water, the secularists wouldn’t believe him,” said Morton Abramowitz, a former American ambassador to Turkey who is a senior fellow at The Century Foundation, a nonpartisan research group.

Mr. Erdogan dodges direct discussion of religion, preferring instead to cite his party’s glowing economic achievements, which his secular critics often dismiss. “Some have eyes but cannot see,” he said in a speech this month. “Some have tongues but cannot speak the truth. They have ears but can’t hear. That’s where the problem is.”

Then, in an earnest cry of incomprehension: “What makes you so uncomfortable?”

But his silence has fed the worries of secular Turks, who fear that their freedoms will be curtailed by the rank and file of Mr. Erdogan’s party, who have grown up in conservative communities largely separated by sex.

“There is a feeling of my rights being taken away,” said Guldal Okutucu, the leader of the women’s branch of the Republican People’s Party, “of pressure that tries to push me into a secondary role.”(Oh little poor you...uh why is there a "womans branch" of the Republican People's Party if you extremist goons aren't segregated?)


Jinnzaman said...

seems like every muslim country is on the verge of civil war.

Roland Hulme said...

Wow. An entire blog railing AGAINST secularists.

Go for it, DrM. Drag Turkey back to the dark ages. The most progressive muslim nation on Earth? Decent Godfearing folk can't allow THAT to continue.

No wonder the European Union won't accept Turkey as a member. How sad is that?

DrMaxtor said...
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DrMaxtor said...

An entire blog against secularists? Time to go see an ophthalmologist, Hulme. You didn't(or couldn't) read the article, why am I not surprised? Turkey is NOT a "progressive"(wonder what your neocon definition of that is, military coups and hijab bans notwithstanding) Muslim state. Its a militarist secular banana republic, much like Ba'athist dictatorships. The majority of Turks have no interest in joining the EU, its a good slap in the face of the secular fascists running the country to be refused entry despite bending over backwards to appease the communal Europeans.
Aren't you the same neocon troll who was shedding crocadile tears for the Kurds, trying to justify the invasion of Iraq(while dismissing Iraqi causalty figures) on Kashmiri Nomad's blog? Guess what, the Turks have killed far more Kurds, so feel free to reach for some kleanex. And I haven't forgotten your incredibly laughable comment about how you feared your wife couldn't display cleavage in public because Muslim woman dressed differently.
A tad bit paranoid are we, carrot top?

Amad said...

Love the post, Dr. M.
In fact, loved it enough to link it as a must-read in my blog entry at Muslim Matters:
Get that Hijab Away… Turkey’s Secularists Traumatized!

kashif said...

Dr. M,

a great pleasure to know that your back. As for the human dumb ass i.e. Roland, maybe the EU won't accept a backward military backed state like Turkey because stupid secularists like yourself have been lining your pockets and bankrupting every country in your grasp.

Here are a few good articles for the Muslims on this site on Turkey from another perspective:

Tariq Nelson said...

I found some interesting pictures that are related to this issue

Vigilante said...

I associate myself with the views of Roland Hulme. Dr. M. should marry a Christofascist (if he hasn't already). They would be very happy together. I got one down the street, if he wants an introduction....

DrMaxtor said...

I'll pass on that, Vigil. Don't care for fascists, religious, secular or otherwise.
Did you know that Kurds aren't allow to speak their own language in Turkey?

Sadettin Koçak said...

Dr. M,

Can you please tell me where in the Quran, it is clearly described the headscarf, turban or the uniform that most of Islamist Politicians, mullahs, sheiks advices women to wear on?

As I know, Islam is sent by Allah, which are his words also, to all mankind (not only to Earth and humanbeings, also to all of the universe), for all times.
If so, (I believe so, I hope you believe in the same way.)isn't it strange to think and expect from Islam to be such strict on women fashion?

Also can you please tell me where in Quran, it says that women who show even one single hair will be sent to Hell and let there stay 40.000 years? (This is what sheiks and mullahs tell Muslim Women)

Isn't adding words, to Allah's words, the biggest sin in Islam?
Won't someone who tries to change Allah's words will stay in Hell forever?

And also as I know Islam is a religion that tells people to think logically and always in scientific way. Doesn't Quran start with "Read"? (When someone starts to read he also starts to think, doesn't he?)
Wasn't he, Hz.Muhammed adviced Muslims "Go and learn the science, whether it is in China". I think he was talking about positive sciences, wasn't he.

Isn't it trying to make worthless and humiliate Islam by trying to make it so formalist?

I think Islam is for our souls and brains not for our hairs.It is he connection between us and the Allah, it is not the chain on our wrists for swindler sheiks and mullahs.

Stay with peace.

P.S. Kurds can talk, teach and broadcast in Kurdish in Turkey. You are wrong

DrMaxtor said...

The "islamists" aren't the ones making hijab THE issue, Sadettin YOU are. Citations? Go look it up. Ok fine, I'll give you hand, Surah 24 Verse 31 and Surah 33 Verse 59 from the Qu'ran for starters. But I doubt you will look it up, you could have easily asked any Turkish hijabi(the majority of Turkish woman, alhamdulilah) that question...but this really isn't about hijab now is it? Its about Ataturd's kemalist secular fascists losing their iron grip on power. So much for the claim that Turkey is a democracy. All this fuss over the way woman choose to dress? Logic? Please. Your hatred of Islam is ILLOGICAL, and your tactics against its practioners is no different to that of a school yard bully. Grow up.
I find it ironic you cite(and twist) Hadith about seeking knowledge(not necessarily science, as if kemalists are scientists) yet have little objection to the sale of alcohol in Turkey. Do you really need me to show you the citation for its prohibition? Oh but I forgot, booze did Ataturd in, didn't it? Still want to talk science? I didn't think so. BTW Kurds are NOT allowed to speak their mother tongue in Turkey.
Time to grow up, bud. Hijab isn't going away. Turkey and its history is larger then that sabbatean munafiq Ataturd and his illogical followers. No better time then now to realize that.

Vigilante said...

Dr. Maxtor, I am aware of the Turks suppressing the Kurds. Are you going to tell me that it's the secularists' or the Islamicists' whose boot is on the Kurd's neck?

DrMaxtor said...

Its the secularist fascists(not the same thing as a secular person, mind you) in Turkey who are responsible for appalling treatment of Kurds there, Vigil. More specifically, I am speaking of the kemalist military which has called the shots for decades(including overthrowing democratically elected civilian governments). They are the ones, who for fear of losing power have made the hijab(worn by most Turkish woman) a "sediticious political symbol" to create an atmosphere of hatred.
BTW there is no such thing as an "Islamist." "Islamist" is up there with jihadist and now wahhabist in my book. Totally stupid meaningless word that attempts to Anglicize an Arabic word, advertise it as intellectual and with deep meaning while actually only superficially pretending to bypass the connotations that are invariably associated with it by its religious context. In reality, it's those connotations and the religious context which are being manipulated to put the religion of Islam in new, hateful, bigoted, misrepresented terminology.

abu said...

Excellent Post Dr. M ....

I also appreciate your insightful comments.

Sadettin Koçak said...

...Surah 24 Verse 31 and Surah 33 Verse 59...

So, are your political symbol headscarf or political uniforms clearly described here?
NO, at all.
Why isn't it described clearly?
I am asking something like for pork ;

"He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without willful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful. "

You claim that Ataturk is a "donmeh", can you give us a proof? Or is it just a slander?
If he was a traitor to his nation and muslim world why did he lead the independence war against Britain,Greece, France, Italy etc.?
I don't know if you are aware of but after we lost WWI our country was totaly invaded, and the army was disbanded. You are accusing me to be illogical, but I think you are so.

And, also you are saying that Ataturk died because of cirrhosis, and try to mean that it's because that he was an alcholic.

Yes it is true, he died because of cirrhosis (cirrhose ascitogene).
Yes it is true he was drinking alchol and he was smoking.

But also, he was in the battle fields between 1909 - 1923, and during this time he catched hepatite,malaria,typhoid,typhus,pulmonary infection,kidney infection several times and one heart attack. Plus, he has been injured with a canon fire.
If you are a doctor and an honest man (or woman) stop talking nonsense.

I really wonder what will you look like ,with your pure blood without any alchol in, after 15 years with very bad conditions in wartime and this much disease?

One more thing for your attitude;
You are trying to claim and accuse Ataturk not to be a Muslim and he was cheating people.
Do you know the punishment for your act in Islam? Accusing someone not to be a Muslim, who says that he is a Muslim.
If you don't know, I can tell you later.

DrMaxtor said...

Sadettin, you must on hitting the bottle pretty hard, because the desperation in your comment is evident.
If you can't even read or understand verses from the Qu'ran, you're pretty much done. But I doubt very much that you kemalist fascists have any knowledge or interest in the Qu'ran itself. If you're going to play semantic games, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.
You call any expression of faith a "political symbol," which is nothing but a red herring for your paranoid political power plays. The Hijab is not a "political symbol," you kemalist hypocrite. Why do you sell alcohol in Turkey anyway? Is a Muslim who refuses to drink it a "political Muslim" like my friend at Ankara university who is being refused his degree engineering because he has a beard? You think we're going to let you slander our mothers, sisters, wives, daughters because you so hate the deen? My deluded friend, if you honestly believe that, I have a bridge in Baghdad to sell you.
Ataturk didn't die from war wounds did he? The degenerate drank himself to death, and I say, good bloddy riddance! If I was a groupie of that sabbatean munafiq Ataturd(his origins are well known), I would be sharing plenty of time with ol' Johnny Walker.
Stop behaving like a bunch of thugs and grow up already.

Vigilante said...
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Anonymous said...

Secularism doesn't mean freedom. Anyone who knows anything about Eastern Europe or China under the communists knows that is true.

There are many women in the very imperfect Middle Eastern monarchy where I live who had to move here from Turkey to pursue their educations because they are *forbidden* to do so in "We Wanna be the Tail of Europe" Turkey. Are these the human rights values of the EU -- to deny people an education because of how they dress? Well, they're part of the "human rights values" of the secular fundamentalist Turkish army and their civilian allies.

dawaholic said...

old post but still want to comment...good post on KamaloFascists Dr.M if have go to the bottom of this Secular shit in Turkey you will realize that real source for all the stink is Jew-Sodomite Mustafa Kemal...AllahuAalam...

ralph magarian said...
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ralph magarian said...

I cannot say what the social and religious implications are of modern Turkey. However, I would expect that the Attaturk authority must have had much western influence on its people. I can relate to the attitudes, social aspects and religious beliefs of the Ottoman Turks as told to me by my father, who imigrated to the US in 1905. He said the Turks were murderous, paranoid imbeciles who who took great pleasure in inflicting cruelty and sadistic torture, especially to the Christian population, within their borders. I'm sure the modern-day Turk would prefer to forget their past history or deny it.